Rogue Construction Contractors

[Maxie]

Can you report them to an association or the police, get your money back?

[tboy]

1) You will have to prove that they didn't live up to their part of the contact
2) You will have to prove there was either a verbal or written contract
3) The police won't do anything, you will have to file in small claims court or superior court to sue to get some, or all, of you money back


Watch Holmes on Homes on HGTV to learn more....

Being in this business myself I will say this: The customer is often 75% responsible for problems with a contractor.

I have only ever met ONE customer who realized that to get top notch work, using the best materials, actually costs....gasp, can you believe it?... MONEY. You only get what you pay for, if you want a bargain basement discount price, you will get bargain basement, discount workmanship.

Also: most or many contractors fail to quote additional work once a job is started. If it wasn't written down in the beginning, you the customer are open to all kinds of additional charges once the job is complete. I ALWAYS say to my customers if they ask me to do more work or I have found the work to be done is running over budget due to unforeseen circumstances "Sorry, I hate to say this, but because of x there will be about x amount added to the bill..." or "These things are not part of the original estimate, if you like, I can price them out for you..." or "This wasn't part of the original contract, it will cost x to do this additions...".

Stuff like this always is a headache:
1) I am contracted to replace a bathroom faucet, I quote them x dollars to do it based on the fact that it should only cost me x.
When I show up to do the job I find they've ordered a special faucet from zimbabwe that uses non standard threads, and the adapter needed is only available in thailand and has to be special ordered.

or

Upon removing the existing faucet I find that the copper pipes running to the faucet are so old and corroded that they have to be replaced or the shutoff valves at the fixture are rusted shut and need to be replaced.

[Maxie]

If you lose in small claims court do you have to pay the other sides costs?

How many holes, and how big, have to be put in the wall to install track lighting wiring in a basement?

[james t kirk]

If you lose in small claims court do you have to pay the other sides costs?

How many holes, and how big, have to be put in the wall to install track lighting wiring in a basement?

To your first question - yes, if you lose and they go after you.

To your second question - depends. If you need to fish a wire across the joists, then you need a hole big enough to drill at every floor joist. If your are running with the joists, then it' s not as many holes.

[james t kirk]

I have to agree with tboy on this one.

75% of the time people have problems with contractors it's their own fault.

Most people think only with their wallets on a short term basis. They set about doing major renovations to their house and don't even have a set of specs. (Probably because they have no idea on how to go about getting a job done properly.)

They figure that they can call up joe contractor and he will do everything, all inclusive, then they go for the guy with the lowest price. Well guess what, it doesn't work that way. If you are doing a big reno, hire yourself a good architect or good engineer and get them to provide a full set of stamped drawings and specs and expect to pay for that too. Then get a quote from 3 reputable contractors who have references based on the drawings and specs.

Rule No. 1 if it aint in the specs and drawings, then it's extra. At least that way there is an understanding of what is and what is not included in the job.

I am a fan of Holmes, I think he does a great job, and his show is interesting BUT sometimes (not always) the fault lays with the consumer. Often times Holmes will ask - "How much did they quote you?" and the person will say, "10 grand" to which Holmes will reply "this kind of work should cost about 40"

You just know that they probably had 3 or 4 quotes, of which most were 40 grand and one was 10, so they picked the guy for 10. So what did you think buddy?

[tboy]

It is well known on this board about my feelings about Mr Holmes...I totally agree with his phylosophy of doing it right the first time but I SO disagree with the image her represents on tv of what it is like to do a reno.

The problems with his show are:
1) He ALWAYS sends the client away and does what HE wants, not necessarily what the client wants. He never shows what a normal contractor has to deal with with the customer standing over your shoulder bugging you every 3 seconds or freaking cause you're taking a 20 lbs sledge to the wall he put up last summer.
2) It is SO freaking easy to do a great job with an unlimited budget and unlimited manpower. I mean, shit, if he discovers the project needs new plumbing he calls up the show's plumber and gets it done. EOS. In real life usually the contractor will do it or have to pay someone else to do it...aka EXTRA CHARGE and he NEVER discusses the costs of this with the customer..why? CAUSE THEY AIN'T PAYING.
3) His timing is out to friggin lunch. Recently he did a show where they reno'd an entire house. They vapor barriered and taped the whole house (about 1700 sq ft, 3 bdrm) and called in the drywallers. There is a shot of him saying "look at that, 2 hrs to drywall an entire house, that's what I like". UTTER and COMPLETE bullshit. No taping, No edges, No sanding, nothing. Now any customer that sees that show is going to expect that..

Maxie:

As with all renos, you're looking for info on a box of widgets. There are so many determining factors.

1) where is the existing ceiling circuitry?
2) Do you have any lights there now?
3) where do you want the tracks?
4) Do you want more than one track?
5) If you want more than one, are they paralell or perpenducular to each other?
6) Do you want low voltage or line voltage lights?
7) how many lights do you want on each track?
9) How long are the tracks you'd like to put in?
10) Do you have a drywall ceiling, celing tiles or a drop ceiling?
11) where is the fuse box?
12) Is the switch that controls the ceiling lights (if you have any) in the room, outside the room, on another wall?
13) Is your basement FULLY finished? Some basements only have finished walls in the living area and the backs are just exposed studs.....
14) are all walls interior walls or are there some that are exterior? (exterior walls have vapor barriers and insulation that needs to be dealt with).
15) If you don't have existing celing lights, does your panel have enough room to run another circuit? and if so, can your main supply handle another load?

[antlerman]

I am a contractor....have been for 20 years........I wish I had the bugets and ability to do what Mr. Holmes does.........but that doe snot exist...and when it does.......man..o...man...there will be the shitty contractor standing in front of you.

I agree there are to many variables involved to answer you question.

it is like asking "Did I get ripped of paying $500 for doing the body repair work on my car?"

to many variables.......

[Daddio]

It has been my experience that main difference between used car salesmen and contractors, is that the used car salesman knows when he is lying to you.
An experienced contractor can plan his job out and budget for common circumstances. I have seen contractors charge for unexpected matters in new premises being built to suit. What kind on bullspit is that?

In the end I wouldn't want to walk away feeling like one of us didn't get a good deal. I have yet to meet a contractor who feels the same way.

[hambone]

It has been my experience that main difference between used car salesmen and contractors, is that the used car salesman knows when he is lying to you.
An experienced contractor can plan his job out and budget for common circumstances. I have seen contractors charge for unexpected matters in new premises being built to suit. What kind on bullspit is that?

In the end I wouldn't want to walk away feeling like one of us didn't get a good deal. I have yet to meet a contractor who feels the same way.

You have no idea how the contractor feels in this regard.

The contractor has absolutley ZERO desire to be constantly asking the client for more money simply because 1) the scope of work was never specified correctly or 2) because the engineer/architect missed something on the drawings.

Any good contactor will tell you his objective is to do the job as specified and get on to the next one.

[Maxie]

How much should it cost to fix the frontage, rotting wood replaced with that "cardboard" siding, on a house with 8 windows needing replacement, pot lights in a 3 room size basement (how many should go in the ceiling) and brick and cement steps on a porch, garage doors painted and a few other minor improvements, 40k? the frontage is roughly 9 by 16ft high.

[tboy]

It has been my experience that main difference between used car salesmen and contractors, is that the used car salesman knows when he is lying to you.
An experienced contractor can plan his job out and budget for common circumstances. I have seen contractors charge for unexpected matters in new premises being built to suit. What kind on bullspit is that?

In the end I wouldn't want to walk away feeling like one of us didn't get a good deal. I have yet to meet a contractor who feels the same way.

Well, I won't say there aren't any unreputable contractors out there but there are more reputable ones, than not...

To answer your comment about the experienced contractor:
- Even an experienced contractor can miss a couple of things when surveying a job....should he be penalized for it? Should the customer get it for free? If the contractor knew about it beforehand and put it in the quote, would the customer NOT be paying for it?
- Sure, we budget for common circumstances, but as a customer, would you want us to charge you automatically to put knew piping and valves in if you didn't need them? Then you'd call us a ripoff artist for selling you something you didn't need. You've hit the nail right on the head about what we face everyday, we're damned if we put it in the quote and sell it to you and damned if we don't because you bitch about having to pay extra for something that you need.

As for contractors charging for unforeseen circumstances in new construction. Have you ever heard of things like, maybe the soil can't support the structure or there's an underground stream? How about bedrock that needs to be removed to make room for the footings? How the FUCK is a contractor supposed to know that? I don't know about all of them but I sure as hell don't own a ground radar unit and my xray specs don't work like they used to.

There are also things like:
-Furnaces - different model being shipped which require different connections, specs etc
-Architects making small changes that cause us all kinds of problems when he doesn't bother telling the guy who is putting in the *&*)#@)(*& WALL
- Clients changing their minds about how big the closet in No 2 bedroom is...did you know that if he changes it ONE frickin inch it could change every wall on that floor?
-Changing from a soaker tub to a jacuzzi
-Changing the tile from ceramic to porcelain...(that is a major fucking headache) or, god forbid GLASS tiles (oh I hate those fucking things)
- Changing the switches from a standard toggle to a decora...did you know that doubles the price of the switch and just count how many can be in an average home, who's supposed to eat THAT cost?

Let me ask you again, say the builder estimated that he needs 300 linear feet of 1/2" copper pipe. Then he finds out he actually needs 350...should the CUSTOMER get it for free?

The thing that pisses me off the most about your comment is the fact that you think you should feel you 'got a good deal'. You SHOULDN'T feel you got a good deal you should feel that you got GOOD WORKMANSHIP...the deal so to speak is secondary......The customer should feel that he paid the going rate and got a great job done....End of Fucking Story....

[oldjones]

How much should it cost to fix the frontage, rotting wood replaced with that "cardboard" siding, on a house with 8 windows needing replacement, pot lights in a 3 room size basement (how many should go in the ceiling) and brick and cement steps on a porch, garage doors painted and a few other minor improvements, 40k? the frontage is roughly 9 by 16ft high.
Somewhere between $200 and 200,000 dollars. Here's the first example of how the client makes trouble for himself: You can't get a reasonably accurate estimate without a reasonably detailed description of the job. Since this is not a skill most homeowners have, your best bet is to get yopurself educated by having a number of guys come to the site and give you estimates. As each one quotes, you'll learn more of the terminology and standards that make a good, clear job spec. Be sure you tell each of them the same overall job requirements,—writing them down is good—and you can add what details you've learned to the spec as you go: "new roofing" becomes "asphalt shingles" becomes "20yr three-tab ashaplt shingles" for example.

As far as the job spec you provided here:
Sorry, no one but you knows what you mean by "cardboard" siding, and don't you want all the frontage to match, or is it really just the "rotting wood" you want replaced? You say the windows need replacement, but are they in the job, and if so, how big are they, what are the new ones to be made of, and how should they operate: up and down (double-hung) sliding side to side or like doors (casement). Only you know how big a three-room sized basement is, and only you can decide how many lights you need/want. You say "…brick and cement steps on a porch" without saying whether they exist and need repair, whether you want such steps where nothing now exists, or whether existing steps are to be demolished and replaced by etc. never mind how high and wide the stairs are. Finally, a small bedroom in a suburban house might have a wall only 9' wide, and the ceiling's maybe 8' high, so a 9'x16'H frontage for a whole house is sorta unusual. And don't forget to spec who disposes of the garbage.

All that said—and I didn't mean to be harsh—if you have 40K to spend, you can get a lot done, especially if you are very clear about what the job is, so the contractor can plan efficiently.

[tboy]

Here's a little story for you:

I was doing this job (kitchen) just finishing the trim etc. that the home owner didnt' have the skill to do. While I was doing all this stuff they decided they want a custom range hood.

They get some prices for stainless, brushed alum etc and they are all around $1800.00. They didn't want a wooden one like many kitchen manf. provide cause they are IMHO butt ugly.

So I spend about 8 hrs doing up drawings, taking dimensions, researching the mechanics etc. and they decide on one of my designs.

I quote them $1400.00 they flip, well we only wanted to pay about $300.00. I said, well, you buy the guts and I will build you one for $300.00 but you have to finish it. Oh no, we don't want to do that. I say ok, you buy the stain and I will stain it for you for $100.00. BTW I AM NOT A FINISHER they charge about $100.00 an hour not $100.00 a job....

So I make the thing, takes me about 20 hrs to build, veneer, fitting and moutning their guts etc. They get the stain, it is the wrong colour (doesn't match the kitchen). I just happen to have some that is close so I give em a sample (took about 2 hrs to produce the sample and deliver it) they say ok. So I stain it and clear coat it. BTW, took me about 6 hrs of blending etc to get the stain close.....

I install the thing and it doesn't match exactly and, of course I warned them, the stain job isn't 100% perfect. What happens? they bitch and moan about the colour, and it isn't exactly what they wanted. (took me about 3 hrs to install plus I had to pay for some ducting that they forgot to buy).

Keeping track of my hours yet? Let's add em up:
Drawings: 8 hrs
construction: 20 hrs
Install: 3 hrs
Sample: 2 hrs
Staining: 6 hrs
Material: (cherry veneer) $80.00
Ply core: $30.00
Ducting: $20.00
fasteners/Contact cement: $20.00
Stain and Clear coat: $20.00

Ok so I've got 39 hrs and $170.00 you do the math....I ended up making about $13.00 an hour on it and they BITCHED about it.

I said to them, look, if you wanted the $1400.00 piece, I could have made it for you and gotten a pro to finish it. But you didn't, you wanted the $400.00 piece and that is what you received....

LESSON: IF YOU WANT TO PAY 1/3 THE PRICE OF SOMETHING YOU WILL GET AN ITEM 1/3 THE QUALITY....

[oldjones]

It has been my experience that main difference between used car salesmen and contractors, is that the used car salesman knows when he is lying to you.
An experienced contractor can plan his job out and budget for common circumstances. I have seen contractors charge for unexpected matters in new premises being built to suit. What kind on bullspit is that?

In the end I wouldn't want to walk away feeling like one of us didn't get a good deal. I have yet to meet a contractor who feels the same way.
Don't be silly. A used car salesman can be compared to a real estate you buy a resale house from, but a contractor is either like your mechanic or like the factory that builds the car.

In my experience it is quite often the case that my mechanic phones to say he has to do additional work, that I didn't know enough to forsee and ask him to do. In that case, I'm just like the homeowner who didn't know to get the drywall hung flat and plumb, when the trim carpenter says the whole job will take longer than he could have estimated from the drawings.

And just imagine how firm a price you might have gotten for that cute PT Cruiser when it was just a concept model in the Chrysler exhibit at the car show. Wanna bet there'd be a change or two—or two thousand—in both car and cost before you got the keys? And would you really have speeded production up if you'd sat in the design department at the plant?

The difference between client and contractor is that the contractor can show you to the penny where he got all the costs that went into the quote. The client who 'just wants a good deal' has no concept of taking equal responsibility for the job's quality, but where does he imagine the '5% off sweetner' he demands is going to come from? And when the client says, "And I'll still get the quality I'm paying for?" And the contractor, who was told it was a $100,000 job, but found he'd only get it if he bid 95K says, "Sure", who's really the liar?

[Maxie]

The contracting home improvement industry needs to standardize its business. I would not fix things or buy a smaller property because down the line it's going to be a headache to fix things. That said the industries growth as more throw away homes are built is questionable.

I'd rather have a "leak" than get ripped off by a contractor. If I'm not smart enough to maintain a house I won't live in one...

[tboy]

The contracting home improvement industry needs to standardize its business. I would not fix things or buy a smaller property because down the line it's going to be a headache to fix things. That said the industries growth as more throw away homes are built is questionable.

I'd rather have a "leak" than get ripped off by a contractor. If I'm not smart enough to maintain a house I won't live in one...

Buddy, it IS pretty standard....what do you think building codes are?
Although some contractors have an inside to some materials where some of us have to buy retail. Some have more skilled labour and some have less....that is where price flucuations will come into play.

But dude, a piece of drywall is a piece of drywall. Where your "standard" comes in is quality of work and you cannot standardize that. You GET what you PAY for, a wise man once said:

It is dumb to pay too much but it is idiotic to pay too little.....

But, why is it a headache to fix things? Because you don't know how? because you need specialized tools? Why not learn? Hell home desparate has classes and seminars ALL the time.....Just because you invested in a house doesn't mean you can't accept the responsibility of home ownership. Responsibility means learning about all the systems in the house, at least the basics.....

I bet you drive a car and don't have any idea how to change the timing belt or even the sparkplugs......

BTW maxie: your leak could be any number of things that won't be discovered until you start ripping into the job. It could be just a loose shingle but if you let it go, you could have major water damage...better get that looked into....Here's a thought: why don't you climb up into your attic with a flashlight and take a look around? See if there is any water damage to the rafters, insulation, etc. Try to find out where it is...Then go up on your roof (with a safety line of course) and look for loose shingles etc in the area that you saw was wet from the inside.....Be PROactive instead of REACTIVE.....

[papasmerf]

I agree with you that all contracting should be standardized. This would set prices, quality and most of all prevent customers from saying that is too much. As a homeowner you must admit that you think something is worth say 100 dollars to fix, yet you find out that contactors want from 3500 dollars to 5300 dollars for that job you would do for 100 dollars; parts and labor. Now standard pricing would let you know that 4700 dollars for that 100 dollar job is what you have to pay. You will feel better knowing that you are paying the absolute best price you can get. You know that all contractors are created equal and will do the minimum standards for your job. You will not have to worry that one contractor would be better qualified. Minimum stardards will be set and met.

[Maxie]

Buddy, it IS pretty standard....what do you think building codes are?
Who the fuck understands that shit!

[papasmerf]

Who the fuck understands that shit!




Contractors;)

[Maxie]

Contractors;)
Ya and that's why they can get away with charging what they do sometimes, there's little transparency for the average consumer.

[papasmerf]

Ya and that's why they can get away with charging what they do sometimes, there's little transparency for the average consumer.

the reality is you can ask for refrences as well as take several bids.

In a bid situation I suggest tossing out the lowest and the highest.

Write a contract spelling out the materials and job(s) to be done. You should set forth the standards in the contract and be responsible for policing them.

BTW ask yourself are you worth the money you get for performing the work you do. And if asked would you do it for 30 cents on the dollar.

[Maxie]

the reality is you can ask for refrences
References are useless when the people who give them don't know what they're doing. It's hit and miss in this industry.

What I do to limit risk is contract the job a little at a time. If I get burned I'm only out a few thousand and can try again. A big job I would reassess the value of the asset before fixing.

[papasmerf]

References are useless when the people who give them don't know what they're doing. It's hit and miss in this industry.

What I do to limit risk is contract the job a little at a time. If I get burned I'm only out a few thousand and can try again. A big job I would reassess the value of the asset before fixing.

you can hire a privite builing inspector to check the quality of worked performed as well as demand a performance bond (the bond will limmit the number of bidders). You can also write the contract with a holdback clause of 10 or 20 percent pending a privite inspector (3rd party) approving all work.

[Esco!]

This sounds like a job for Silverman Helps.....






WATCH IT BUDDY!!!!!!!!

[Maxie]

you can hire a privite builing inspector to check the quality of worked performed as well as demand a performance bond (the bond will limmit the number of bidders). You can also write the contract with a holdback clause of 10 or 20 percent pending a privite inspector (3rd party) approving all work.
lol. You have to be kidding, do you own a house. Inspectors are as useless as tits on a bowl. They can't see in thru the guts of the structure. One home inspector said if you want to find the leak get out a hose. Contracts under a 100k are difficult to enforce due to legal costs. What's a 10 or 20% holdback when you've paid 80% and realize you've been scammed.

[papasmerf]

lol. You have to be kidding, do you own a house. Inspectors are as useless as tits on a bowl. They can't see in thru the guts of the structure. One home inspector said if you want to find the leak get out a hose. Contracts under a million are difficult to enforce due to legal costs. What's a 10 or 20% holdback when you've paid 80% and realize you've been scammed.

then do the work yourself

atleast your work will live up to your expectations

[Maxie]

then do the work yourself
You're right and that's what more and more people are doing.

[papasmerf]

You're right and that's what more and more people are doing.

Like I always say. Let the other guys do the projects. We will come in and fix it when it does not work.

[tboy]

Jesus, Maxie, the way you're talking you are so bitter that I think you better tell us what really happened or are you just "surmizing"???

I really don't know what you'd get out of what you call standardizing this industry. I mean, the auto industry is standardized and you can pay anywhere from $5000.00 +/- for the same car just depends on who you buy it from, what time of year you buy it and how good you are at negotiating.

As for the hose idea, nothing wrong with that! In fact, you could spread out some newspaper inside your attic so when you spray from the outside, you can tell where the water came from.

BTW: Home inspectors CAN see into the structure of the house. There are numerous tools they have at their disposal to sample the structural integrity of the bulding.....from microcameras, to moisture level detectors in wood, etc

I find it really funny how people will spend $150, $200 - $400,000.00 for a house yet know nothing about what it is made of, how to maintain it, how to repair it, nothing....Oh, I bet they know how to plug in the toaster and turn on the taps so they can wash their hands.

Buddy, there is NOTHING wrong with going to school to learn what us contractors do. NOTHING. If you're too frickin lazy to learn how to do something then you have to pay someone to do it for you......

Funny how your comment indicate that everyone is out to get you and no one knows anything....yet you yourself don't know anything about what needs to be done else you'd be doing it yourself....Get my point?

(edited) get OUR point???

[tboy]

here's a little exercise for you maxie, I bet you wont' do it, but here is something so you know a little more about why it costs so much to get work done on your house:

1) Buy a stopwatch, or a watch that has a stopwatch in it. Cost you about $5.00 at the dollar store.
2) 1 saturday morning go to home depot and before you even start to put on your shoes, start the stopwatch.
3) Now you don't have to actually buy anything, but here's a list of items that you a) need to find and b) need to write down the price of.
4) when you've found ALL the items, not most of them ALL of them. Even if it takes you all day, go stand by the checkout and pick one person at the back of the line when you arrive and follow them out of the store after they've paid for their purchases.
5) get in your car and drive home. When you have your shoes and coat off, stop the stopwatch and see how much time you've spent. THAT amount of time is JUST to get the fuckin materials and a contractor hasn't even started WORK on your place yet.

In addition, he has to load all the crap into his truck, drive to your site daily, and on top of that, complete the work.

Here's the list:
4 x 10 5/8" firecode Drywall
#6 x 1 1/4" coarse drywall screws. Box of 1000
3 1/2" x 8' steel studs
3 1/2" steel tracks
steel wiring channel
Wiring Grommets for steel studs
Cloth drywall tape, roll of 250 ft
Premix drywall compound 5 gal pail
80 or 100 grit open coat garnet sandpaper any size or package
14/3 indoor household wire. Roll of 100'
EZ101 retro fit electrical boxes
decor light switches
decora switch covers
decora duplex recepticles
decora recepticle covers
#8 x 3" wood screws, package of 250
1 1/2" bimetal hole saw with arbor (preferable bosch)
18 volt dewalt xrp battery
13/16" primed pine quarter round
1 1/2" long 1/4" tapcon screws
7/32" percussion drill bit (should be by the tapcons)
Any hammer drill NOT cordless

Let me know how you make out...

BTW: The above materials are the basics you'd need to put a small stud wall in your basement which just about anyone with half a brain should be able to do.

[Meister]

I would not fix things or buy a smaller property because down the line it's going to be a headache to fix things. That said the industries growth as more throw away homes are built is questionable.



You have a point about throw away homes. The new houses are crap. Sometimes I wonder about investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into a house that is built on timber and plywood. Sooner rather than later the houses fall apart.

In Europe most of the housing is built to last, many last centuries. And not only foundation and walls, but hardware, windows, doors, roof etc... are so much superior than here. Why can't we do this here?

[james t kirk]

Who the fuck understands that shit!

Me.

But I took the time to learn.

[james t kirk]

Contractors;)

Some Contractors understand the building code and some do not, I can assure you.

Most don't even own a building code.

Good Contractors are out there. Trust me. But usually they don't come cheap.

[tboy]

You have a point about throw away homes. The new houses are crap. Sometimes I wonder about investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into a house that is built on timber and plywood. Sooner rather than later the houses fall apart.

In Europe most of the housing is built to last, many last centuries. And not only foundation and walls, but hardware, windows, doors, roof etc... are so much superior than here. Why can't we do this here?

Dude, wtf are you talking about? A house won't last because it is built of timber and plywood? FYI, because obviously you don't know, houses made of wood can last and HAVE lasted for 100 200, 300 yrs....WITH the proper maintenance... You think concrete will last that long in our climate? Just look at the old gardiner expressway extension and the actual gardiner. They have to put millions into repairs every year because the concrete corrodes from the weather.

I work with wood all the time and keep a good layer of paint on it and it will last forever.....

I just love it when people talk about stuff they know nothing about....

[james t kirk]

I have had opportunity to do work in my line for homeowners.

Some are ok, others are fucking morons. They think that when you quote them a price that you are instantly trying to rip them off. Wouldn't matter what you told them.

For small stuff, I grant you that you'd better figure out what you need done.

For big renovations, you NEED an architect or an Engineer to prepare very accurate drawings and specs.

And even then, don't expect there not to be additional costs, there always always are. It is not possible to get the perfect set of drawings.

It's quite simple, if it isn't on the drawings, it's extra work and the contractor has a right to charge extra for it.

Likewise, if it IS on the drawing and the Contractor didn't estimate it, or carry a price for it, that's too bad for the Contractor.

Fair is fair.

[james t kirk]

A simpler way to go is Time and Materials, but many Contractors don't want to do this, nor do many homeowners.

If you have a good Contractor, and you are knowledgable enough to supervise the work yourself, there is no reason that T and M isn't the better way to go.

[tboy]

A simpler way to go is Time and Materials, but many Contractors don't want to do this, nor do many homeowners.

If you have a good Contractor, and you are knowledgable enough to supervise the work yourself, there is no reason that T and M isn't the better way to go.

I do mostly T and M and it has worked well for me. There are a couple of times where the customer asked: "ok, t and m, but can you give me a rough idea of how long it will take"? My mistake was giving them a guess....then they took that as fact, and when the actual time came in, this (although very mildly) questioned the final amount....I simply said "you were here everytime I was here, was I not working? was I not doing what you were asking of me? Did I not point out to you the additional items you asked me to do after the fact and did I not tell you about how long they would take? That shut them up pretty quick. BTW, they have asked me back to do additional work on their house........

[oldjones]

Who the fuck understands that shit!
Clearly you don't. But thousands and thousands of people in your city do. They're the people you want to hire. Start by treating them, and the work you obviously need with respect. Until you stop imagining that they gained all their hard-earned knowledge just so that they can put it at your disposal, without you knowing so much as the name of the thing you want fixed, you're asking for the sharks to line up first.

Your public library is full of books on this stuff, some with great pictures, and easy step-by-step text. You don't have to do the work yourself, but it'll be a lot harder to put one over on you if you know what you—or the other guy—is talking about.

[oldjones]

You have a point about throw away homes. The new houses are crap. Sometimes I wonder about investing hundreds of thousands of dollars into a house that is built on timber and plywood. Sooner rather than later the houses fall apart.

In Europe most of the housing is built to last, many last centuries. And not only foundation and walls, but hardware, windows, doors, roof etc... are so much superior than here. Why can't we do this here?
Well OK. Let's compare European homes and Canadian homes built these days and see which lasts longest. Meet ya here in a coupla centuries.

It's precisely because you can't wait to find out by observation that we have those building codes that Maxie" …building inspectors are useless" sneers about. And if everyone actually did as they're supposed to: submitted proper plans, got approvals and permits, got inspections at various stages of completion, there'd maybe be fewer sob stories like his. How else are we gonna ensure what goes into our houses and how? We can't rely on guys like Maxie (or me, you or Joe Average) to know.

Let's all remember that when we stack up societies on the scale of more or less government regulation, it's the Europeans who come out on top. Often we North Americans deride them for it. But just maybe regulations—like lumber grading standards and joist spans—have a point. Maybe, next time, when the contractor asks if you're going for a permit, you should say, "Yes, why wouldn't you?"

[Maxie]

I don't have a problem paying a fix-it man well to do a good job, it's when they don't know what the problem is and they quote you anyways to get the job. A contractor is like a stockbroker if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge.

Homebuilders have done a good job of convincing people the shit they build is a good investment. While I'm no fan of stocks they outperform real estate over time by a margin of 3 to 4 times. I know people who bought houses in the early 80s have held thru the "boom years" since then and after expenses including mortgage interest, taxes, energy, maintenance are barely even. Now I know some of you may say people have to live somewhere, what about rent. Well a good investment is judged by its total return and cost and on that basis many houses are a shit investment especially the cardboard boxes they started building in the 60s. After 30yrs a new roof on a 500k home can cost 25k, new carpet 20k, painting outside every 5yrs 5k, inside walls ceilings 10k, furnace, appliances the fucking expenses and hassles never end. Most people are too afraid to admit the costs. A house or condo is a depreciating asset, the land is worth something but only in a good location with nice vegetation. To the people who own those cookie cutter boxes on tiny lots, pray for inflation, cause that's the only thing that's going to raise the value of your shitbox. No offence.

[tboy]

I don't have a problem paying a fix-it man well to do a good job, it's when they don't know what the problem is and they quote you anyways to get the job. A contractor is like a stockbroker if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge.

Homebuilders have done a good job of convincing people the shit they build is a good investment. While I'm no fan of stocks they outperform real estate over time by a margin of 3 to 4 times. I know people who bought houses in the early 80s have held thru the "boom years" since then and after expenses including mortgage interest, taxes, energy, maintenance are barely even. Now I know some of you may say people have to live somewhere, what about rent. Well a good investment is judged by its total return and cost and on that basis many houses are a shit investment especially the cardboard boxes they started building in the 60s. After 30yrs a new roof on a 500k home can cost 25k, new carpet 20k, painting outside every 5yrs 5k, inside walls ceilings 10k, furnace, appliances the fucking expenses and hassles never end. Most people are too afraid to admit the costs. A house or condo is a depreciating asset, the land is worth something but only in a good location with nice vegetation. To the people who own those cookie cutter boxes on tiny lots, pray for inflation, cause that's the only thing that's going to raise the value of your shitbox. No offence.

Buddy, you had a bit of sympathy from me, and patience even with your BS comments but no more. I thought you had some smarts until you wrote the above....I mean, dude, how can you include the mortgage costs on a house to ROI of other stocks etc? If you want to do an accurate comparison or argument include the fact that you have or had to borrow money to buy the stocks etc in the first place.

As for your long term goals, yes, some stocks are better than real estate but dude, you tell me ONE share or stock or mutual fund that has tripled in value over the past 6 yrs. I double DOG dare you....for eg: I bought my loft for $75000.00 at the end of 1999. I recently had it appraised and it is now worth $240,000.00 plus (that was two years ago so it is worth even more now..). FYI: I finished the bathroom for $1000.00 and put a new maple kitchen in which also cost me $1000.00 so for 2 grand, I realized an ROI of $165000.00 dude, that is ONE HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS in 6 YEARS. So you're saying to me that you KNOW of a stock, bond or share that for $2000.00 is now worth $495,000.00? Dude you're a millionare and didn't even tell us.....

By the way, either provide PROOF of a share or stock that realized this kind of ROI or just STFU

And boy do you like cardboard or something? I lived in one of those houses built in the 60's...it was worth $7200.00 and is now worth $300 K plus....and I know the only major renovations that have been done is a new roof, $1800.00 and a new furnace which I believe was $2400.00.

Another thing: that house, had plaster NOT drywall, the walls are straight, flat and plumb. The baseboards and mouldings are SOLID, NOT fingerjointed pine, the corners of the baseboard are coped, and are a full 6" high. This is the type of stuff you find in houses 700 K and up nowadays.

So dude, before you go off half cocked, make sure you back up your assumptions with facts, NOT conjecture.....

[Esco!]

May wanna try some Decaf, tboy

[oldjones]

I don't have a problem paying a fix-it man well to do a good job, it's when they don't know what the problem is and they quote you anyways to get the job. A contractor is like a stockbroker if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge.

Homebuilders have done a good job of convincing people the shit they build is a good investment. While I'm no fan of stocks they outperform real estate over time by a margin of 3 to 4 times. I know people who bought houses in the early 80s have held thru the "boom years" since then and after expenses including mortgage interest, taxes, energy, maintenance are barely even. Now I know some of you may say people have to live somewhere, what about rent. Well a good investment is judged by its total return and cost and on that basis many houses are a shit investment especially the cardboard boxes they started building in the 60s. After 30yrs a new roof on a 500k home can cost 25k, new carpet 20k, painting outside every 5yrs 5k, inside walls ceilings 10k, furnace, appliances the fucking expenses and hassles never end. Most people are too afraid to admit the costs. A house or condo is a depreciating asset, the land is worth something but only in a good location with nice vegetation. To the people who own those cookie cutter boxes on tiny lots, pray for inflation, cause that's the only thing that's going to raise the value of your shitbox. No offence.
Yup. But this thread you started is about contractors. You're supposed to know what the problem is, otherwise how can he quote? If he has to come up with the diagnosis as well as quote and you carved his best guess in stone after what: maybe half an hour's inspection, while you've had days weeks or months to observe, my bet is you were selectively deaf when he said things like, "we'll know more when we see more". There's something vaguly dishonest in expecting the stranger to define and fix your problem. But I wasn't there.

Maintenance does cost, and people never stop to figure it per annum. Yeah, that roof (mine was quoted at 15K for 30yr, but my 500k house is downtown and has a way smaller roof than a 500K McMansion in the burbs) won't be cheap, and you could figure mine at $500 a year. A prof tracked house prices, adjusted for currency fluctuations, on a street in Amsterdam (http://www.unimaas.nl/default.asp?template=werkveld.htm&id=Q27774636XW57CXW67O0&taal=en) from 1600s to the present (thanks to Dutch regulations, he had the records) and found that the real price of the house (stillstanding, and desireable) finally doubled only in the last century. Still, everyone knows there's money to be made in real estate (spell Trump) maybe just not by you and me. Still, you gotta live somewhere, and TANSTAAFFL.

Anyway, read your first paragraph next time you take on a bulding project: "if you don't know or care he'll screw you or overcharge" You left out the third possibility: that he'll do a decent job and you'll feel just as bitter and cheated, because you don't know. It's hard to cheat an honest, informed man.

[Maxie]

how can you include the mortgage costs on a house to ROI of stocks
There was an article in the Post recently that showed the cost of mortgage interest over 30yrs is more than the value of the house. It's like having to pay for two homes. Interest expense also reduces the value of stocks bought on margin.

All I'm sayin' is a house is a fucking headache, it's cheaper to rent, take the savings and reinvest it somewhere else unless you get off on gardening and snowblowers.

[rick dickulous]

I'm a contractor too. If a customer is smart they will find someone they can trust and hire them on a time and material basis. Home owners rip themselves off with their "give me a final quote or nothing" attitude. Contractors will quote those dopes a price they are pretty sure they can make a killing on, or just fuck off if things go sour. In this hot Toronto market, improving your house is like stashing that money in a bank. Home owners with half a brain will realize that and go for a quality job. Here's a metaphor: what's a better value? A trans fat and salt and sugar laden burger, fries and pop for 5 bucks, or an organically grown chef salad for $8? One will clog your arteries, and the other will clear them out! Home renos are the same decision, and more often the customer makes the wrong choice.

[jaycam]

There was an article in the Post recently that showed the cost of mortgage interest over 30yrs is more than the value of the house. It's like having to pay for two homes. Interest expense also reduces the value of stocks bought on margin.

All I'm sayin' is a house is a fucking headache, it's cheaper to rent, take the savings and reinvest it somewhere else unless you get off on gardening and snowblowers.


Are you a short bald man? How do you function in life, or are you only this way when dealing with owning a home.

[tboy]

May wanna try some Decaf, tboy


LOL Yeah I know, it is just when idiots like maxie start sprouting off about contractors aka ME and James T et al it gets my blood boiling.....


There was an article in the Post recently that showed the cost of mortgage interest over 30yrs is more than the value of the house. It's like having to pay for two homes. Interest expense also reduces the value of stocks bought on margin.

All I'm sayin' is a house is a fucking headache, it's cheaper to rent, take the savings and reinvest it somewhere else unless you get off on gardening and snowblowers.

Sheesh, you really know your finances don't you? I guess every knowledgeable financial advisor is wrong and you're right? Hell, here I thought paying monthly for MY house and getting the financial benefit when I sold was a good thing and all along who knew that paying the same amount in rent and never seeing a penny of it again was the way to go? Shit, why pay off my mortgage when I could be paying off someone else's??? Damn, I'm doing this all wrong......

LOL renting is cheaper eh? LOL chortle, cough, god....that's a good one...a REALLY good one......

Here's some simple math for you maxie:

Rent:
$1000 a month, for 20 yrs (the average mortgage) without even considering rent increase.
$240,000.00 and what do you have to show for it? Not a fucking thing...

Own:
$1000.00 a month (even for a condo) for 20 yrs = $240,000.00 and what do you have? A condo worth $240,000.00 which you can sell and whoa, look at that, you lived rent free for 20 yrs....

Yeah Yeah I know, there's maintenance costs with a condo but ya know, a lot of rentals don't include utilities any longer so you have to pay that anyways on both.

[Esco!]

Even though tboy has popped a few blood vessels I have to agree with him, I've lived in purchased condo's most of my life and the only expenses are:

mortgage
maintenance fees
property taxes
and the very occassional miscellaneous costs like plumbing, painting, floor grinding.......etc

and I dont even have floor maintenance anymore because I installed laminated Pergo wood which lasts for 50 years, I never have to grind it and reseal it again.

So please tell me Maxie, where will my next major maintenance bill come from???

[james t kirk]

Out of curiousity, what is the going rate for T and M for a general contractor who is good at what he does these days?

[tboy]

Depending on what is being done, my rates average between $25.00 and $50.00 per hour.

For eg: someone wants some trim work done, $25.00
they need custom cabinets etc $35.00
something that needs rental equipment or for me to
hire other trades $50.00 +

I also charge $15.00 per hour for helper if the job is rush or is in need of 2 people to complete.

Like I said, it depends on what is being done. Say someone wants a new addition and requires a foundation built/dug/formed then it can be as much as $120.00 per hour.

And material, well, that again depends on what is being done but I typically charge 20 points over cost (that is AFTER taxes) plus time to go get it. I also include the cost of all adhesives/fasteners etc.

And btw, my time starts the minute I start packing tools at the shop and ends the minute I put the key in the lock to unload.

My T and M also is plus mileage at $0.32 per km.

basically whta T and M is everything that you would normally include hidden in your quote, right out in the open.

I also do Time only and the customer supplies material. This is a MAJOR headache because a couple of times, I've given a list of materials that they need to purchase and they don't get the right stuff, or not enough (ie: I need 1 x 3 G4S pine and they get 1 x 2 or I need 8 8' lengths and they show up with 6) But I charge em for any delays caused by this but typically I move on to other things while they go get the right items. it is a pain though when you schedule your time and then can't complete that part of the project.

[james t kirk]

Those are all very reasonable rates. Cheaper than I expected even.

I have 2 good friends who are generals.

One is 50 bucks an hour, the other is 75 if he doesn't like you, 60 if he does.

Your mileage rate is too low.

If you were to put 200,000 km on your vehicle at 32c, you would get a cheque for 64,000.00.

If you are driving an F-150, they are about 45k out the door and then maybe some.

Say that leaves you 20 grand.

At 10 litres per 100 km (no F-150 will get that, but let's say) that means you need 20,000 litres of gas.

That equals say $20,000.00

So, just the gas and the vehicle, that's now equal to $65,000, already more than you are charging for your vehicle.

Add in insurance and maintenance, and you are probably over by another 15 to 20 grand.

In short my friend, you are paying your customers for you to drive your vehicle.

My company charges our clients 41 cents per km for mileage. Other companies I have seen charge 45. The gov't charges 49 cents.

You may want to rethink your mileage rates at least.

cheers

[oldjones]

Thank you both for these insights; may I offer the CAA's Driving Costs study (http://www.caa.ca/PDF/3708-EN-2005.pdf) in support of the jtk's suggestion for truck rates.

[tboy]

Those are all very reasonable rates. Cheaper than I expected even.

I have 2 good friends who are generals.

One is 50 bucks an hour, the other is 75 if he doesn't like you, 60 if he does.

Your mileage rate is too low.

If you were to put 200,000 km on your vehicle at 32c, you would get a cheque for 64,000.00.

If you are driving an F-150, they are about 45k out the door and then maybe some.

Say that leaves you 20 grand.

At 10 litres per 100 km (no F-150 will get that, but let's say) that means you need 20,000 litres of gas.

That equals say $20,000.00

So, just the gas and the vehicle, that's now equal to $65,000, already more than you are charging for your vehicle.

Add in insurance and maintenance, and you are probably over by another 15 to 20 grand.

In short my friend, you are paying your customers for you to drive your vehicle.

My company charges our clients 41 cents per km for mileage. Other companies I have seen charge 45. The gov't charges 49 cents.

You may want to rethink your mileage rates at least.

cheers

Well, yeah, I know my rates are low for the most part. At present, since I've only been indie for 2 yrs, I haven't taken on any major renovations. (By major I mean a whole house or basement etc.) Should I do so my rates would run at the same as your other "generals" (as opposed to privates or sarges lol). At present I keep my rates low so I can build up my rep and get some word of mouth out there. As demand for my skills and time grows, so will my rates (and it is growing). Lately it seems that I've become known for custom transition or thresholds for hardwood floors. I think I have made about 100 linear feet of them. I seem to have a knack for it lol.

About the mileage rates, you're bang on and thanks for doing the calcs for me (I mean it). I just haven't sat down and figured out what I SHOULD be charging so you saved me a bunch of time.

As for your friend's, does that hourly rate include any additional manpower or is it just for them? I ask because the company I worked for before going indie would charge $65.00 an hour, but that was for a crew of 2. Anything larger and the rate would of course, go up.

[james t kirk]

Well, yeah, I know my rates are low for the most part. At present, since I've only been indie for 2 yrs, I haven't taken on any major renovations. (By major I mean a whole house or basement etc.) Should I do so my rates would run at the same as your other "generals" (as opposed to privates or sarges lol). At present I keep my rates low so I can build up my rep and get some word of mouth out there. As demand for my skills and time grows, so will my rates (and it is growing). Lately it seems that I've become known for custom transition or thresholds for hardwood floors. I think I have made about 100 linear feet of them. I seem to have a knack for it lol.

About the mileage rates, you're bang on and thanks for doing the calcs for me (I mean it). I just haven't sat down and figured out what I SHOULD be charging so you saved me a bunch of time.

As for your friend's, does that hourly rate include any additional manpower or is it just for them? I ask because the company I worked for before going indie would charge $65.00 an hour, but that was for a crew of 2. Anything larger and the rate would of course, go up.

50 per hour is just for him, or any of the 2 senior guys that work for him.

If you figure 40 hours per week at 52 weeks per year = 2080 manhours per year.

50 bucks per hour x 2080 hours per year = $104,000 per year.

If you are very good at what you do, 100 k per year salary is not out of whack. I would bet that there are lots of guys on this board making 100 grand per year and think nothing of it, but if a contractor charges 50 per hour they are the same guys like maxie who get all bent out of shape.

[tboy]

Funny that you brought that up (about the wage level)....I was thinking about this whole thread this week and I remembered the ONE time in (too many years) that someone acknowledged the value contractors and carpenters played in the big scheme of things. It was an architect who said to me: you know, you guys are greatly unappreciated in general, just because we can draw things on paper doesn't really mean squat. We don't actually BUILD the building/house/barn...we just show someone else how to do it. Without you guys as an integral part of the team, nothing would really ever be built.....

[new2game]

Here's a little story for you:

I was doing this job (kitchen) just finishing the trim etc. They get some prices for stainless, brushed alum etc and they are all around $1800.00. They didn't want a wooden one like many kitchen manf. provide cause they are IMHO butt ugly.

So I spend about 8 hrs doing up drawings, taking dimensions, researching the mechanics etc. and they decide on one of my designs.

I quote them $1400.00 they flip, well we only wanted to pay about $300.00. I said, well, you buy the guts and I will build you one for $300.00 but you have to finish it.
So I make the thing, takes me about 20 hrs to build, veneer, fitting and moutning their guts etc. They get the stain, it is the wrong colour (doesn't match the kitchen). I just happen to have some that is close so I give em a sample (took about 2 hrs to produce the sample and deliver it) they say ok. So I stain it and clear coat it. BTW, took me about 6 hrs of blending etc to get the stain close.....

I install the thing and it doesn't match exactly and, of course I warned them, the stain job isn't 100% perfect. What happens? they bitch and moan about the colour, and it isn't exactly what they wanted. (took me about 3 hrs to install plus I had to pay for some ducting that they forgot to buy).

Keeping track of my hours yet? Let's add em up:
Drawings: 8 hrs
construction: 20 hrs
Install: 3 hrs
Sample: 2 hrs
Staining: 6 hrs
Material: (cherry veneer) $80.00
Ply core: $30.00
Ducting: $20.00
fasteners/Contact cement: $20.00
Stain and Clear coat: $20.00

Ok so I've got 39 hrs and $170.00 you do the math....I ended up making about $13.00 an hour on it and they BITCHED about it.

I said to them, look, if you wanted the $1400.00 piece, I could have made it for you and gotten a pro to finish it. But you didn't, you wanted the $400.00 piece and that is what you received....

LESSON: IF YOU WANT TO PAY 1/3 THE PRICE OF SOMETHING YOU WILL GET AN ITEM 1/3 THE QUALITY....

...I didn't get a sense of who you were blaming for this F/Up..that you made 13 /hr on that job..whose fault is it IMHO ??....YOURS..why the hell would you quote such a ridiculous low price to begin with??...I know, the problem in your industry is much the same as in the industry i understand well(auto collision repair)...so many don't know the true cost of what they do, they feel that if they are "working" ..that if they have money coming in, that there must be a profit at the end of the day...you made 13/hr that day..there are lots who screw up worse than you...work all day and make zilch.or lose money.. they just shuffle funds ..and some of those who screw up are good with their hands..excellent craftsmen..but horrible businessmen....and those that are trying to make a proper living at the craft have to pay for it. Accurate and fair estimating is critical in your business as it is in my industry. Educating customers that a quote is just that...it's called an "estimate" for a reason..let them know that when things are disassembled, additional damages can be found,and additional costs will be incurred to repair these damages ..and be open and transparent with them and take the time to show them what needs to be done... and if someone undercuts your accurate estimate, have the strength to let the job go..and if the competitor wants to take it on,and lose his shirt, more power to him..

N2G

[papasmerf]

T&M will save the customer the most

In a firm quote of not to exceed we must add money in for if comes based on experience. If problems come up we are covered. If no problems come up the profit is higher.

Time and Material will save the most.

[new2game]

T&M will save the customer the most

In a firm quote of not to exceed we must add money in for if comes based on experience. If problems come up we are covered. If no problems come up the profit is higher.

Time and Material will save the most.


.....if soemone is slow, or not as skilled..it will take longer to complete the job..and you are paying for someone being on the clock, when the job could already be done....and never box yourself in to a "Firm" quote as a contractor...unless you can see everything that there is to see while quoting

N2G

[james t kirk]

Funny that you brought that up (about the wage level)....I was thinking about this whole thread this week and I remembered the ONE time in (too many years) that someone acknowledged the value contractors and carpenters played in the big scheme of things. It was an architect who said to me: you know, you guys are greatly unappreciated in general, just because we can draw things on paper doesn't really mean squat. We don't actually BUILD the building/house/barn...we just show someone else how to do it. Without you guys as an integral part of the team, nothing would really ever be built.....

And vice versa. Often times I hear contractors bitch about Architects and Engineers, however, until you have tried to put pen to paper and come up with their work, you should be more gracious.

I realize that some architects and Engineers are not on the ball as are some contractors, however, most contractors think that most architects are stupid and out to lunch. They don't realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE for the drawings to have thought of every little detail and issue.

[papasmerf]

.....if soemone is slow, or not as skilled..it will take longer to complete the job..and you are paying for someone being on the clock, when the job could already be done....and never box yourself in to a "Firm" quote as a contractor...unless you can see everything that there is to see while quoting

N2G

You don't box yourself in
you define terms of work in the quote beyond that there are extras. As for the slow tradesmen you will find that you can still do fine there if you have a defined completion date. I do reccomend that the first time you use a contractor you get a firm quote, second time you get a not to exceed price. By the third time you and the contractor will have a feel for the needs of eachother and T&M works.